Well hello again! It's been awhile. I really liked this site on Blogger and how this discourse was progressing. Unfortunately I was phished back in 2011, really a thoughtless and insensitive thing to do to someone not very computer literate. With a little help, I've been able to find my way back to my blog, to reclaim it. I hope to continue and update you on things I've learned in the interim. First, though, I need to review my own posts here so I don't repeat myself unnecessarily.
Hello
ReplyDeleteHi Friznecker,
ReplyDeleteSorry for the first post, it was a test, do not know if it would work (I am actually just registering here on Blogger only to have the possibility to exchange views with you).
So are you still in activity ?
If yes, following will be some thoughts of mine I would like to exchange with you.. sorry by advance cause my post will be a bit long.
And sorry for my English which is not my maternal language.
Just to introduce me, I am Vincent from France living near Paris. Keeping and breeding many chicken breeds/strains since many years and working on special breeding and selection’s projects.
ReplyDeleteI am not a professional breeder.
I myself do many search during the years on chickens, birds, reptiles, dinosaurs, skin and feathers colouration, skulls, etc.. and that’s how I found your blog.
What will follow is the result of my own observations and deductions (no scientific proofs here, just a matter of logic).
I do agree with you on many points but not on all.
Yes it’s almost impossible that there was not a flightless predator chicken species about some 10000 years ago or more.
ReplyDeleteThis flightless chicken was a giant one and not a smaller one as you seem to think, it could really have been as large as our actual Gamefowl and even larger (hybridation with early domesticated Red Junglefowl would just have had the tendency to decrease its size).
It was probably found really early by some human boat communities and also probably highly prized by every human communities in all the Indonesian region.
Small feathers are an adaptation to arid sunny and really hot environment and to size increased too, they permit a better body cooling and are not a sign of abnormality. Chicken like all birds has got a tendancy to gigantism (dinosaurism could we say) when the conditions are goods. So this giant terrestrial chicken never reach its physical limits ! It could have been the size of an Ostrich or more if the external environment would provide the conditions (more food items, larger prey, more surface available, etc..).
ReplyDeleteFeathers on legs were probably not a feature of this giant flightless chicken, cause it would really make no sense for a terrestrial theropod-like predator to have this handicap.
I do not remember if you mentioned it on your blog but feathered legs are accompanied by a reduced third toe (like if the legs begins to transform in wings) which again would be a handicap for a running and highly leg stable, fighting, territorial predator like all Gamefowl are.
Again feathered legs, beards and feathered combs would be in total contradiction with the necessity to quote with high temperatures and body cooling. So I think these features would originate from elsewhere like some other populations and not from a
highly predatory one. Presumably a really more flightly one (some small flying early birds/dinosaurs showed this characteristic on fossil records).
Reduced feathers length in wings and in tail are also typical by all the extant and extinct terrestrial birds large and small ones and are precisely a sign of terrestrial lifestyle adaptation. Many asiatic Gamefowl strains do show these characteristics like Malays, Shamos etc.. again it’s a proof of a more terrestrial lifestyle by this giant chicken.
It is also possible that rumplessness originated from this giant predator chicken and could be a terrestrial adaptation feature too.
Again silky feathering could be directly linked to rumplessness (lack of uropygial gland by these birds), reduced length of body feather and flying feathers, reduced queel bone, etc.. all these features could be linked to a more terrestrial lifestyle.
Many terrestrial birds show hairlike feathers, vestigial wings and tail, no queel bone, etc..
I do not agree when you describe this bird to be horizontal in posture like an ostrich. To me it makes more sense for a predator to be more vertical perhaps not so the Shamos but certainly at least like the actual raptors. Horizontal posture comes from the more flying strains and vertical posture from the more terrestrial malayoid strains when you hybrid chickens.
ReplyDeleteThe shoulder bizarre posture we can typically see by the Japanese O Shamo and some other malayoids are also probably a system design for heat regulation. Typically chickens do open their wings by really hot weather, perhaps this shoulder posture is of any help by it.
Nacked neck feature was highly studied and it gives a better cooling capacity to the strains that show this characteristic. Some old malayoid strains do always show this feature, so this giant terrestrial chicken was to me presumably naked necked. And the naked neck genetic do directly come from it.
ReplyDeleteIf you have got some pure Gamefowl you will observe a tendancy to a really more vividly reddish coloration of the exposed skin than by normal chickens. As you know the red is not a pigment but it is actually blood appearing through micro capillaries just beneath the skin.
By birds the red skin coloration is used as a sexual attractant.
So this giant chicken would probably showed a bright red colored nacked neck. Some gamefowl originating from Vietnam are actually like that (Gadong, Madagascar nacked neck, etc..).
As you know, almost all malayoid strains have got yellow skinned legs (no blue or green which are signs of hybridation).
Only some Indian Aseel are white skinned. And some European Gamefowl are blue or green skinned (as you probably know we obtained green and white legged birds in F2 generation when we cross yellow and blue skinned strains together.. Araucana is an example of green legged birds as are our Grand Combattant du Nord breed here in France which is our best and largest Gamefowl).
So it is really probable that this giant chicken was also yellow skinned (and not blue legged like the red junglefowl).
As recent DNA studies suggest ancient introgression of Yellow skinned gallus species does occur in the Gallus domesticus. I am about sure that this introgression does occur via the giant chicken and that it is through it that yellow skin does appear in the more recent domestic lines and especially asiatic ones.
This fact is really important by itself cause it gives us an important indication of the species that do gave birth to the giant chicken and it was probably not the red one.
It is not the only feature that do give us such information. In fact there are many : eye coloration, variability in feather coloration and their format, etc..
ReplyDeleteThe pearl eye coloration typical by the Malayoid is a trait share with many predators around the world, avian ones (raptors, egrett, seagull, etc) mammals (big cats, wolfs..). And it’s not a coincidence, cause this eye coloration gives a better visual acuity to catch preys.
As you remarked it, developed eyebrows are also a predator trait, cause it protects the eyes from the sun that could otherwise be blinded by it during diurnal hunting operations. Exactly the same utility than by raptors and by other giant extinct terrestrial predatory birds (Phorusrhacidae..).
Gallus gallus do not show pearl colored eyes, we can find it by other Gallus species, is it a coincidence ?
Gallu lafayetii (Sri Lankan Junglefowl) has got light yellow eyes not so far from pearl coloration and in captivity is showing a tendency to need more protein and so more prey items than Gallus gallus to be bred efficiently. So this species is the more predator of both, perhaps his eyes coloration is already an adaptation to his more predatory habit ?
Reduced facial structures : this giant chicken do very probably showed absence of double wattles and earlobes and a vestigial or totally absent combs. All of these could be some handicap during the territorial fights.
But it also probably got a single small dewlap (wattle) under the neck as are showing many Gamefowl breeds. It seems to me that true wild Red Junglefowl do not ever has one, but Sri Lankan Junglefowl do has a tiny one and Java Junglefowl has the largest one of all Gallus.
Green Junglefowl (Java) are also the only Gallus species that do not wear any double wattles nor earlobes.
So if I should do a description of this giant terrestrial predator chicken, I would say imagine a small Phorusrhacidae with bright red naked neck, raptor like triangular beak, pearl eyes, raptor like eyebrows, small body size with almost no queel bone, reduced wings, reduced tail or rumpless, hairlike feathers, long and strong yellow legs. About 80 cm to 1 m hight and 5 to 8 kilos.
ReplyDeleteAs I already say, there are many other features that make me think that this giant chicken could probably has resulted from a hybrid population composed of different Gallus species in an enclosed small environment, especially feather coloring and paterning but it’s a bit complicated to enter on this subject here.
ReplyDeleteFor me it could likely been a hybrid between Gallus varius (Java Junglefowl) and Gallus lafayetii (Sri Lankan Junglefowl), but it’s just an hypothesis.
Where does this hybridation occured ?
ReplyDeleteLike you say on your blog, for a bird to evolve to flightlessness there must have been no major terrestrial predator in the environment, and above all, no mammal ones.
All the predatory features of this giant chicken gives us the indication that the prey items should have been readily present there and especially arthropods and probably large ones to sustain a population of giant predator chicken and its long term evolution.
So we are looking for an Island with no large mammal predators nor reptiles and populated with many arthropods.
This Island should be not too near from the continent (or larger Islands) so that the population isolation would be sufficient to make a tiny fragile flying bird to evolve to a big ground predator (arrivals of flying type ones would interfere with this evolution and should not have been too frequent). But this island should not been too much far from the original Gallus populations too cause these birds are weak flyers.
If this giant chicken really was a hybrid between Gallus lafayetii and Gallus varius, then the Island should be about halfway from the two main populations.
Christmas Island with his hyper diverse terrestrial crabs species and millions individuals of them, could be an environment well suited for a giant terrestrial chicken predator to evolve.
But it’s just a supposition cause no fossil records do actually bring proof of that...
I just reread your writings about the fact that like some other Island isolated birds (Dodo on Mauritius Island for example), the terrestrial chicken you described could has been very tame to humans.
ReplyDeleteAnd I do totally agree with your assertion, the Shamos and other Malayoid games I do kept through the years are ones of the tamest and smartest chickens I ve got, and again it’s probably not coincidental.
Like you seem to think, it is highly probable that this particular temperament of the terrestrial chicken could effectively has played a major role during Red Junglefowl domestication phases and probably was of a great help at it.
The early use of this terrestrial chicken during the chicken domestication process could also explain why the yellow pigmented skin phenotype is so widely present in domestic breeds of regions where the native wild Red Junglefowl species is blue legged (skinned).
It could also explain the rapid increase in size and body mass seen in domestic chickens in comparison to the quasi dwarf sized Red Junglefowl.
You said that actual large Malayoids are oversized, I do not agree with that. I ve heard of a O Shamo female here in France which always layed clutches of eggs at the advanced age of thirteen years old !
Malayoids are well known for they fighting hability and physical capacities, they are at it the more tough, tenace and powerful of all Gamefowl breeds and were largely used here in Europe to create or bring new blood to all our large Gamefowl breeds !
This alone is a sign of their really good health.
An oversized bird like the meat industrial broilers would have many health problems like heart failure, articulations problems and so on..
But Malayoids on the contrary are perfect birds !!